[00:00:00] Adam Walker: From Susan G Komen, this is Real Pink, a podcast exploring real stories, struggles, and triumphs related to breast cancer. We’re taking the conversation from the doctor’s office to your living room.
We know that one in eight women will be diagnosed with breast cancer in the U. S., which means that most people know someone that either has been or is currently touched by breast cancer. On top of that, there have been increasing number of celebrities in the media speaking about their breast cancer diagnosis, which can sometimes make it feel like people are being diagnosed constantly. When family members, friends, loved ones, co workers, friends of friends, anyone around us is diagnosed, it can bring up feelings of fear and concern for our own health. Today, we are blessed to have the perfect person on the show to talk about this.
Licensed professional oncology counselor and breast cancer survivor, Dr. Chalice Rhodes is here to empower us to take charge of our health, to give us tools to cope with these feelings and not let anxiety stop us in our tracks and to let us know that we are capable of handling whatever comes our way.
Dr. Chalice, welcome back to the show.
[00:01:18] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here, Adam.
[00:01:21] Adam Walker: I’m excited to have you here. It’s nice to see you again, and I really appreciate you taking the time. So while it’s certainly a good thing for awareness, hearing about when cancer touches people that may tend to feel like they’re invincible, which is, celebrities, professional athletes in their peak form, members of the royal family; it can stop us in our tracks. Why do you think this can be so triggering for so many people?
[00:01:47] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Okay, so it is so triggering because just think we see celebrities on TV all the time and we actually start to develop a connection with celebrities. We start to feel like we know them. They’re showing their lives in various aspects, especially with reality TV.
So people feel an emotional connection to celebrities and it triggers their own sense of mortality. It also highlights the fact that, wow, these celebrities are not invincible. Even though it appears that they have everything that they would ever need. No one is exempt from a health diagnosis.
[00:02:24] Adam Walker: I love how you put, I think I do that too.
I think about, members of the royal family and they feel like they’ve got everything. They never have to worry about money. They never have to worry about like a car breaking down, there’s so many things that they don’t have to ever think about. But it never really they could like legit have major health issues and that’s completely beyond their control.
And I think to your point, like it does shatter our bubble a little bit.
[00:02:52] Dr Chalice Rhodes: It really does Adam. Because listen, our health is our wealth. And when we tend to think of wealth, what do people typically tend to think of material things? Your health, that’s a whole different ball game right there.
Because if you don’t have your health, what do you have at the end of the day?
[00:03:09] Adam Walker: Yeah, you’re right. Time is our one resource that we never get back. And if we feel bad while we’re spending that time, that is, that’s not a great use of that resource. So, related to like being triggered by this, what are some tools that might help listeners cope with sort of these feelings.
How can we sift through that anxiety and find a place of empowerment that allows us to take charge of our health?
[00:03:34] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Yes. So listen, anxiety robs us of the present moment. You know why? Because anxiety is future focused. Anxiety is worry about the future, fear of the unknown. Along with that comes physiological symptoms in our bodies, heart rate, palms sweating, difficulty concentrating, memory issues, memory loss, sleep issues, right?
Now, how can we cope with that? We have to know the importance of our breath. Because anxiety fuels things physiologically in our body. So we can use the power of our internal breath to actually help calm our nervous system. So really taking some deep breathing, taking time to deep breathe in and out, hold it at the top for three to five seconds, letting that breath out and just blowing it down through your throat, down through your chest, down into your diaphragm.
And so you’re just nice and relaxed. Imagery, mental imagery is so important. Imagine something that makes you feel relaxed. What makes you feel good? For me, it’s the beach. Oh, I love the beach. And many people do, right? You hear the crashing waves on the ocean. You’re smelling that fresh, clean air. You’re seeing the seagulls.
Flat people walking by. People on jet skis. The sun is beating down on your skin warming your skin up. You’re getting that nice tan or that nice additional glow to your skin. So think of something that relaxes you, also to help connect you to the present moment because remember anxiety robs us of really enjoying the present moment. So let’s connect to our five senses. What do you hear? What do you see? What do you feel? What can you touch? Connect to your five senses to help ground yourself, to remind yourself that you’re in this present moment and you’re not where anxiety is trying to take you.
[00:05:33] Adam Walker: That’s right. Man, that’s such great advice. I love talking to you. This is so good. Okay, so, I actually had two thoughts during that I wanted to mention too.
So one is, I was actually reading, I read some stoic philosophies. I was reading this morning, and I think one of the stoic philosophers talked about how when you worry about suffering, you suffer twice because you suffer when you worry and then you suffer when the thing happens. So I thought that was a really interesting perspective.
And the other thing is, the idea of like box breathing. So like you mentioned your breath, like box breathing is I think you breathe in for four counts, hold for four counts, breathe out for four counts, hold for four counts, like a neat, nice interesting way to calm down. For what it’s worth, I thought I would share those with you.
[00:06:14] Dr Chalice Rhodes: I appreciate it. I love that. I’ve heard of box breathing before. but thanks for sharing that and reminding me again.
[00:06:20] Adam Walker: It’s a good, I don’t do it enough, but it is a good reminder and it will, certainly calm you down. All right. So, let’s talk about health for a minute.
Why is it important for women to understand their personal breast cancer risk and get yearly screenings? Can you talk about that for a minute?
[00:06:37] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Yes, I can. And going back to how you opened our discussion, Adam, one in eight women will face a breast cancer diagnosis in her lifetime. Minority women, Black women, Asian, Latin women, Native American women are at higher risk of dying.
Up to a 46 percent higher chance of actually dying from breast cancer. Let’s see, this is why early detection is key. It’s really not cliche as a breast cancer survivor. Myself, my surgeon said to me, you’re one of the early detection saves
lives cases, and I am very grateful that God saved my life from breast cancer because it was discovered early.
I was at the D. C. I. S. Or stage zero, right? So they went in, they did a lumpectomy, and then I had to have 22 radiation treatments. So the earlier your breast cancer is caught, the more manageable the treatments are, right? And then the less side effects you may have. The type of breast cancer that was discovered, for me, thank God, I did not have to have chemotherapy, but even for the people who do need the chemotherapy because of the type of breast cancer they have, at least they still have a chance at life.
Even for metastatic breast cancer survivors, it’s not a death sentence and the treatments are harsh. And there is so much more that metastatic breast cancer survivors have to go through, but their life can be extended. And like you said earlier, they can live that life with quality.
[00:08:07] Adam Walker: That’s right. That’s right.
That’s such good advice. And you’re right, that preventative measure, those screenings are just so critical. It’s not convenient. It’s never convenient, but you got to do it. It’s so important. And it can save your life or if you encourage someone else can save their life. So, let’s talk about, when things hit closer to home, we mentioned, royal family, but but when things hit closer to home, and a close friend or a family member is diagnosed with breast cancer. Can you talk about the feelings that we can expect to feel and how we tend to respond to this news?
[00:08:45] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Yes, let me tell you a lot of times. Of course, the focus is going to be on the breast cancer survivor, but the family can also experience symptoms. So let me tell you some of the symptoms that are common for families and breast cancer survivors. Anxiety, stress, depression. Some people, depending on the type of treatment that is required, experience post traumatic stress disorder.
And research also says that among breast cancer survivors, there’s also increased suicide rates. These same symptoms that breast cancer survivors experience, family members can experience this too, because this takes an emotional toll on them and the survivor, right? It’s going to change the dynamic of the family, depending on the type of treatment that the breast cancer survivor has, depending on her personality or her, or him, right?
Because we know men can get breast cancer too. Depending on what their coping style is, right? So we always want to respect people’s coping styles
because you might have one breast cancer survivor who wants to be surrounded by family. They want so much family support. You may have another that’s in between a little family support here.
A little isolation time here. Let’s mix it up. And you might have someone who’s more towards the more isolation side. So they might accept some family support, but they want to handle it on their own based on whatever, their life story is. So we really want to expect that. But the first 90 days of any life transition is what we refer to as an adjustment period.
So the first 90 days after anything major happens, it is very normal to experience anxiety. Anxiety, symptoms, depression symptoms. So anxiety. I talked about those symptoms earlier, depressive symptoms, feeling sad, losing your motivation, having difficulty sleeping, losing your appetite or an increase in your appetite, difficulty, concentrating, even suicidal thoughts.
Like I was saying earlier, post traumatic stress disorder symptoms, reminders of the event, maybe reminders of the surgery, reminders of having to have a mastectomy, for some and stress. Stress is going to happen, right? It can be chronic stress. It could just be this type of immediate stress.
There’s so many different levels of stress. But it can also affect family members. And like I said earlier, the change in the dynamics. Now, caregiving responsibilities; someone might become a caregiver for the very first time now. Of their partner, their mother, their father, their sister, their brother, right?
So then what toll is that going to take on that person?
[00:11:24] Adam Walker: And so, let’s step into those shoes for a second. Let’s imagine that, you’re someone whose family member just got diagnosed. I would imagine like you’ve got to process those emotions, right? It’s going to be difficult.
What are some healthy ways to process those emotions, both individually and with the person that was diagnosed?
[00:11:47] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Okay, I love this because individually, again, we want to practice using our breath, practice relaxation techniques. Mental imagery, progressive muscle relaxation that combines tensing various muscle groups and releasing along with your breath, right?
Listen, in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, we focus on helping people to restructure thoughts. Because when we have negative thoughts, and we all do,
we have to catch those negative thoughts because they go around like a loop. And guess what they do? They spiral us right down into a rabbit hole. So what we want to do is, when those negative thoughts are whirling around our mind, we want to catch it with a positive thought.
And we want to make that thought more constructive, more positive. So if you have that, common thought that all breast cancer survivors experience, even me, when I was first, heard the word cancer, Oh my God, am I going to die?
[00:12:45] Adam Walker: Yeah.
[00:12:46] Dr Chalice Rhodes: This is so common. Every cancer survivor experiences this.
You got it. Am I going to die? Oh my God. Am I going to die? Am I going to die? No, you’re not going to die. Your surgeon said you are a case of early detection saves lives. It’s only this amount of cancers. She’s going to go in, she’s going to remove it with the lumpectomy. You’re going to heal, have another mammogram to make sure no cancer is present and then they’re going to go in and give you 22 targeted radiation treatments. You’ll eventually have a breast MRI image to make sure there’s no cancer left. You’re going to monitor you every six months. Now you’re going to keep up on your yearly mammograms and you are going to live. You are not going to die.
And not only are you going to survive, but you’re going to thrive.
[00:13:36] Adam Walker: I’m really thankful that’s been your story. And that’s, it’s such a good story. That really is. So, let’s keep talking about the family for a minute. Specifically, the family of someone that’s diagnosed.
What are the emotional effects of cancer on a family on family members in general?
[00:13:54] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Yes. So let’s talk about it again the same symptoms that a breast cancer survivor can experience. So can a family so feeling anxious and worried that their loved one is going to die? What can they do about that restructure their thoughts use their breath?
How can they support their loved one? Empathy. Empathizing, not having sympathy, but empathy is our ability to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes. So can you imagine what it would be like to have a breast cancer diagnosis? Can you imagine what it might be like to have your breast removed?
Because they’re trying to kill you with cancer or having to have chemotherapy and suffering the side effects, the vomiting, the sickness, the lack of energy, the fatigue, cancer, survivors, we experienced a lot of fatigue with treatment. And so family members have to step in and maybe cook a meal, help mom, help dad, help your brother, help your sister, help your child.
So having empathy also. So we have the deep breathing. We have the thoughts restructuring your thoughts. How else can you support grocery shopping, accompanying the breast cancer survivor to appointments, support groups, the, a lot of the healthcare systems have support groups. So families can actually take part, they can receive their support. They may read resources online that helps them feel supported. So yeah, there’s, many things a family member can do with their own mental health. And of course, I’m a licensed professional counselor that’s- And professional counseling, they go hand in hand. They’re not exactly the same thing, right? Because a support group, you’re receiving group therapy in a context of people that are going through what you’re going through. And that’s why group therapy is so effective because it helps people not to feel alone.
It helps them not to feel so isolated.
[00:15:58] Adam Walker: That’s great. That’s great. Now let’s talk for just a minute about empathy a bit more, if you don’t mind. So I’m curious, like in your mind, what the balance is for a loved one that’s trying to support someone going through cancer and there’s the better there to me, there’s like this interesting balance of just sitting in the room and saying this sucks and then there’s the problem solver.
Let me go cook you all the meals, right? And there’s there’s this weird balance between those two ends of the spectrum. Can you talk a little bit about that and like how to navigate that?
[00:16:33] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Okay, Adam, I love this question because listen, we are all human. We all have emotions. We’re going to have good and we’re going to have bad days and we actually can relate your question to the stages of grief and loss.
People don’t really consider the stages of grief and loss when they’re considering a breast cancer diagnosis for the survivor and for the family member, but actually it is. And let me tell you one common area where there’s this feeling of grief and loss over independence.
[00:17:03] Adam Walker: Okay.
[00:17:03] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Over this diverse sense of control, over their lives, over their sense of independence.
But then this can also fall to the family member because now the family member can rightfully, feel like, Oh my God, Hey, I can’t go out golfing anymore because my wife is vomiting. And I need to help her. I need to be here for her. We have to be real. Hey, any good husband or wife is going to want to support their spouse.
But at the same time, you might also feel like, Oh my goodness, I really wanted to go out. It was such a great day to go, or for a woman, it was, it would have been such a great day to go to this girls event. But we make sacrifices for our family members that help mitigate the feelings that we can feel.
But let me tell you about the stages of grief and loss. Shock and denial is the first stage. So shock, Oh my God, I have breast cancer. Oh my goodness. My wife, my husband, my child has cancer denying it. No, this can’t be. Is that right? Let me reread this medical report and then pain and guilt. Emotional pain and physical pain.
We don’t talk about this a lot. When we talk about pain, people tend to think about emotional pain, but people can feel physical pain in their bodies as well, and then guilt. Sometimes women feel guilty if they didn’t get their mammogram, like if they missed the mammogram, right? Sometimes family members can feel guilty if, say the survivor is saying, Oh my God, I was so stressed out taking this on and doing all of these multiple responsibilities and you didn’t really help me.
I did 10 things to your one, it stressed me out. And they say stress is related to cancer. Now the family members feeling, Oh my God, I really didn’t do my fair share in this relationship. So now maybe out of guilt, they’re doing everything now and they’re going overboard, right? Because they want their loved one to be there.
They love their loved one. And then, so we have shock and denial, pain and guilt, anger. Anger is so, Oh, what I have, what do you mean? You do, you know how many survivors I have spoken to? And it’s are you kidding me? I’ve been working out consistently. I breastfed my children because breastfeeding is proven to, to reduce.
The chances of getting breast cancer, right? I had talked to so many survivors. They try to watch what they eat. They work out consistently. They breastfed
their children. They got their mammograms every year and out of nowhere, this cancer diagnosis comes in and shakes up their entire life, their entire routine.
So anger can happen, right? About the diagnosis, anger with God or your higher power is another one people don’t talk about God. Why did you happen to me? How could this happen? Now after the anger stage, so we have shock and denial, pain and guilt, anger, and then depression, reflection, and loneliness. People can really start to experience depressive symptoms, loss of motivation, feeling sad all the time, mostly every day, all the time, loss of appetite, increase in appetite, lack of sleep, too much sleep, difficulty concentrating, suicidal thoughts.
Reflecting on when they were healthy, reflecting on when their breasts were just their breasts and they didn’t have to have someone cut out cancer, which changed their body. Or when they just had to completely had to have their, breasts removed and now they have to have a mastectomy or some people choose to remain flat. They don’t want the invasion in their body. They don’t want to have a false. So there’s so much grief and loss that goes into this. And then feeling lonely goes with the depression, reflection, and loneliness. But listen, hope is on the horizon because when you get through those stages of grief and loss, now we get to what is called the upward turn stage.
And then you just start to feel I’m feeling less sad about this. I’m adjusting. I’m not as angry anymore. I got all my anger out. I did a couple of kickboxing classes, worked out at the gym, got that out, and after the depression, reflection, and loneliness stages, reconstructing your life post the breast cancer diagnosis.
What does your life look like now? And that final stage of grief and loss is acceptance and hope. Whatever it is you have to accept about your diagnosis and how can you have hope for your future.
[00:21:27] Adam Walker: Speaking of hope for the future, if there is someone that is struggling, it’s listening to this, where are some places they can find some support?
[00:21:37] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Okay. Listen, of course, Susan G Komen provides great resources. There are so many Google articles, Google scholar research, but we want to balance it now because we also know that over researching, Googling everything can increase anxiety. So the key word here is balance. Let’s have balance. Local support groups, right?
Your healthcare system has some sort of resources; professional counselors, any professional counselor, therapist. I happen to be a counselor that specializes in
cancer oncology behavioral health. And just because the therapist doesn’t specialize in that, it doesn’t mean that therapists can’t help you.
So keep it an open mind. Also a great resource that I provide for survivors is in my app. It’s a course. So I used to be a professor for 12 years and I developed a course called Thrive Breast Cancer Survivorship. This course has 27 lessons, is 14 hours long. It’s a six week course based on the pillars of my practice, which is Renew, Restore, Hope, Peace, Harmony, Vitality.
So if you don’t live in one of the states where I provide counseling, which is Georgia, Florida, Delaware, or New Jersey, I’m not unreachable. You can reach me through this app and you can get inspired. You can get educated, empowered on disparities, how to have hope for your future, how to live life with vitality and how to deal with all of these different issues that survivors face and how to gain coping skills.
And it’s an evidence based course. Download my app, Dr. Chalice Teach. And again, it’s called Thrive Breast Cancer Survivorship.
[00:23:20] Adam Walker: That’s some great advice. And just a reminder to our audience, if you are struggling, you are not alone. And there are so many resources that are available to you. Dr. Chalice, this is my last question. You’re a breast cancer survivor. Do you have any messages of support that you want to share with our audience about what you’ve learned through your own personal experience?
[00:23:41] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Yes. So listen, our mental health, which is our thoughts, our feelings, and our behaviors also includes our physical health, which is our nutrition, exercise, and sleep.
And it also includes our spiritual health, which is our personal relationship with God, your higher power, the environment, the earth, whatever it is. You refer to, but we’re holistic beings, right? So we really want to have balance and we really want to hit all of those areas. It’s important for us to tend to our thoughts, our feelings, and our behaviors.
It’s important to get seven to nine hours of sleep at night to exercise for at least 150 minutes a week, moderate to vigorous exercise to strength train for two to three times a week. Watch what we’re eating, to eat cancer fighting foods, to cut down on the sugars and the alcohol, cigarettes, whatever it is you do, and then your spiritual health. Cultivating your personal relationship with your higher power is so important and has been proven by research to really boost your mood, coping skill. So having body and spirit is so important.
[00:24:52] Adam Walker: Great advice. That’s great advice as always, a pleasure to get. I can tell you were a professor because man, you just zip through the information. It was so good.
I really, genuinely appreciate it. I got a lot out of this and thank you for joining us on the show today.
[00:25:07] Dr Chalice Rhodes: Thank you so much, Adam. Have a great day.
[00:25:09] Adam Walker: To answer the question of what’s next for breast cancer patients, Susan G. Komen is proud to present the Breast Cancer Breakthrough Series, a virtual shareable education series in partnership with industry experts, scientists from academic institutions, and patient advocates who directly speak to recent clinical research findings and new treatments.
This series focuses on the new science and technologies that are close to becoming available to patients. Thank you to AstraZeneca and Novartis for their support of the Breast Cancer Breakthrough Series.
Thanks for listening to Real Pink, a weekly podcast by Susan G Komen. For more episodes, visit realpink.komen.org and for more on breast cancer, visit komen.org. Make sure to check out @SusanGKomen on social media. I’m your host Adam. You can find me on Twitter @AJWalker or on my blog adamjwalker.com