[00:00:00] Adam Walker: From Susan G Komen, this is Real Pink, a podcast exploring real stories, struggles, and triumphs related to breast cancer. We’re taking the conversation from the doctor’s office to your living room.
[00:00:17] If you’re struggling with issues affecting your sexuality, you’re not alone. Sex and intimacy can be difficult for many women after a breast cancer diagnosis. Joining us today is Amy Rowan, a certified clinical sexologist and intimacy coach. She’s known as the Suburban Sexologist because she’s just like many of you, a busy working mom and breast cancer survivor who just gets it.
[00:00:42] She makes talking about sex seem like the most comfortable thing in the world, and she’s here today to acknowledge just how hard intimacy after breast cancer can be. To give us some tips on how to deal with emotions and regain intimacy after treatment. Amy, welcome to the show.
[00:00:57] Amy Rowan: Thank you so much, Adam, for having me here.
[00:00:59] I’m so excited to have this conversation with you.
[00:01:02] Adam Walker: Me too. It’s an important conversation. I love the work that you do and let’s I can’t wait to hear more about your story. We did recently have a podcast episode where we had two amazing guests that really opened up and were vulnerable about their sexual health and experiences with intimacy after treatment.
[00:01:21] It was an emotional conversation. I was just a listener in the conversation, thankfully for that one. And one of so many that our listeners were able to relate to. So I’m happy to have you today to talk more from a subject matter expert perspective. So let’s start with you. Can you introduce yourself to our audience?
[00:01:38] Talk a little bit about your personal journey with breast cancer and how you became a sexual wellness coach.
[00:01:44] Amy Rowan: Absolutely. So May 9th actually just coming up is the eight year anniversary of my breast cancer diagnosis. I had my first and last mammogram. I was only 38. I had found a lump. My doctor was like, I’m not worried about it, but I’m gonna send you for a mammogram.
[00:02:02] So, you know, I kind of went into it like, okay, I’m just gonna get a baseline mammogram. And Right, you know, wasn’t concerned in the slightest. And then that day went very sideways, very quickly, and became the worst day of my life. What I learned on that day was that I had stage zero breast cancer, which I didn’t even know existed.
[00:02:23] And it was triple negative. It was high grade with CTO necrosis, DCIS, ductal carcinoma in situ thankfully, and of course, what I learned through the process is I was very lucky. It had not become invasive yet. And so I caught it at the earliest possible stage. And for that, I remained exceptionally grateful every single day.
[00:02:43] But I did have a double mastectomy. I had TRAM reconstruction. All of that happened within five weeks. And then I had three additional reconstructive surgeries over the next two years. So, you know, it was definitely a very scary journey. Something that completely, you know, change the way that I looked at myself, my relationship, you know, just a lot of things.
[00:03:04] It was a big path for me. Yeah. But. As I said, I was so lucky to have caught it as early as I did. I was the first person of my friends in peer group to be diagnosed. Unfortunately, certainly not the last. And I’ve had so many more and more friends get diagnosed each year, including my very best friend who was diagnosed two years ago.
[00:03:25] And so through that I’ve been able to be a resource and a support to so many because one in eight, one in eight women is a lot. It’s a lot of people.
[00:03:33] Adam Walker: Yeah, it’s a lot. That’s right. Yeah, it is a lot. Well let’s talk a little bit, or I guess let’s start with the emotions around intimacy. You know, post mastectomy.
[00:03:43] With treatments that have sexual side effects, what kind of self-image struggles do women have and what is the impact on intimacy from your perspective?
[00:03:52] Amy Rowan: You know, the first thing that I wanna just acknowledge is that breast cancer happens to women at all different ages and stages. So I was on the younger side though.
[00:04:00] I know that there are women who get diagnosed even younger than I did. Most people obviously, you know, tend to be diagnosed in their fifties and sixties and beyond. And so, you know, what I’m gonna share is my journey. But you know, treatment looks different for everybody. I think women especially already feel a lot of guilt and shame and pressure around a sex and intimacy.
[00:04:25] Just because of lack of education there there’s so much to dive into and this is why I have a job, right? This is why I do what I do. But when this has already been a challenging area in your life and then breast cancer comes roaring in, it can feel insurmountable sometimes. And I think that’s why a lot of people, a lot of couples, sometimes they just give up because they just are like, well, I guess this is..
[00:04:51] This is the sign that it’s over. We’re just gonna let this fade into the background because they don’t wanna face those difficult emotions, have the conversations and you know, take the steps. That just, it feels like a lot when you’re already going through a lot.
[00:05:03] Adam Walker: Yeah. Wow. So. And so a follow up question to that then, I mean, how do you, like, do I, I assume you help them through or past that give, I don’t wanna leave that statement lay lingering, right?
[00:05:16] Sure. I mean, so do you help them work through that, right?
[00:05:19] Amy Rowan: Yeah. Well, and actual sex and intimacy coach that’s what I do because you know, sexual dysfunction, there’s so many different, there’s the physical, there’s the medical, there’s the emotional, there’s the relationship side. It is all interconnected and
[00:05:32] I have always seen myself as the person who puts the puzzle together because a lot of people, you know, they’ll go and say, okay, sex is painful. Now. They’ll go see their doctor, they’ll go see typically their ob, GYN, because that’s the first person they talk to. OBGYNs don’t really have training in this.
[00:05:48] It’s not their area of expertise. Or they might go see their oncologist for example, same thing. This is not their area of expertise. Right. And so they may get a little bit of information, they may get a little bit of advice, but they’re usually left wanting and I’m the person who can kind of say, okay, let me help you work through the guilt and shame of the lessons that you’ve learned.
[00:06:08] Okay, you’re experiencing this is the right medical professional you should work with, and so, and help kind of work through all of that. And yeah. And you know, for me, what I experienced, you know, as I, you know, was going through this personally. You know, I was, first of all, I was just angry. I remember just this deep anger.
[00:06:28] I just felt like my body had betrayed me. Obviously I was terrified. Yeah. Because I didn’t know what to expect, you know? I knew I was gonna lose my breasts. I know I was having TRAM reconstruction, so I was having this major abdominal surgery. Yeah. I didn’t know what I was gonna look like.
[00:06:43] I knew I was losing my nipples. I didn’t know if I was gonna have any feeling. I didn’t know if my body was gonna work the same way. I mean, I was. Obviously I was having a lot of pelvic surgery through the abdominal, so you know, I didn’t know if I was gonna be able to have an orgasm. It was, there’s just so many unknowns and these aren’t really things you can Google.
[00:07:06] Right. You know? Right. You know, it’s like, well, I still be able to have an orgasm after I have a double mastectomy. Like, what is gonna pop up? I mean, my Google searches are kind of odd, but for most people, I don’t think they wanna put that in. And and the doctors typically don’t talk about it, and I certainly didn’t ask those questions either.
[00:07:21] Adam Walker: And that’s why you do what you do. That is, and you help people in an. So let’s talk a little bit about partners. I imagine partners have challenges watching someone they love go through cancer. Can you talk a little bit about those unique challenges?
[00:07:37] Amy Rowan: Yeah. This is another just deep layer there.
[00:07:42] And you know, first I am so grateful to my husband, James. We’ve been married for 20 years at that point, I guess we’ve been married for about 13 years. You know, we had three small children. You know, my boys were three, six, and nine at the time, and. You know, and he, you know, he was caring for me, I think probably the most vulnerable moment of my life was when he dragged a chair into the shower.
[00:08:01] You know, I’m sitting there, I can’t move, I can’t lift my arms, he’s washing my hair. Like that was more vulnerable than childbirth. Yeah. That post childbirth period. And believe me when I say I felt anything but sexy and.. I’m, I have, you know, I don’t really know exactly what was going through his mind, but you know there, there’s that.
[00:08:20] So there’s the whole caregiver dynamic and whether that is post-surgery, which it just was for us, or the long-term care that’s required when going through chemo and radiation, and sometimes it’s months and sometimes it’s years. And so, you know, that. You know, that’s, there’s a lot of things that happen in there.
[00:08:37] A lot of times caregivers have they’re afraid that they might hurt you because obviously your body is very delicate in that time. They don’t wanna bother you, they don’t wanna upset you. They don’t wanna, you know, bring up anything that you don’t really wanna talk about. They don’t know how to handle this either.
[00:08:53] There’s not like a, you know, there’s not like a manual for breast cancer. I mean, I know that there’s so much good information, obviously, that Susan G Komen puts out and things like that, but… It can feel so overwhelming in that moment and they also probably are maybe feeling some guilt or shame because they might really want to be intimate with you and then they just feel bad about wanting that.
[00:09:15] Yeah. Or maybe they just want some closeness and they don’t even know how to manage all those emotions.
[00:09:20] Adam Walker: Yeah, that’s a lot of emotions and there’s a lot to, to navigate and a lot going on. And again, why you do what you do, which again..
[00:09:27] Amy Rowan: Yeah.
[00:09:27] Adam Walker: I love. So so let’s talk a little bit about, I mean, I think you alluded to it a minute ago, but let’s talk about communication related to regarding intimacy.
[00:09:36] Do you have any tips on how to go about that for couples?
[00:09:39] Amy Rowan: Yes. This is the number one thing. If I can, if there’s anything you take from this podcast today, please tune into this part because, you know, I think that every single breast cancer survivor that I have spoken to, including myself, felt like there were important people in your lives that might have ghosted you throughout this process.
[00:09:58] And I think it’s usually because that person didn’t want to do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing, so they did nothing at all. And to the person going through the experience. This might feel like you’re being forgotten. And this can happen with your primary partner as well. You know, again, they’re afraid of hurting your feelings.
[00:10:15] They’re afraid of bothering you, and so it’s just easier to retreat. And same thing for the person experiencing breast cancer. So communication throughout this experience, it is so challenging, but it is so important. And so my first tip there is do not let. This elephant grow. Love the big elephant in the room.
[00:10:38] Adam Walker: I love that. I love that. Yeah, that’s great.
[00:10:39] Amy Rowan: So it’s so important to address it and you know, and I’m gonna give you some really good little prompts and I’m gonna share some resources there too. But, you know, one thing that I love is I’m not feeling very sexual or sensual right now, but I miss you. Like I really miss you and I really look forward to when this can be a part of our lives
[00:10:58] again. I love a kiss, maybe just a kiss on my cheek, but just acknowledging it, right? And saying, you know, this is what I’m feeling right now. This is not on the table for me right now, but just nurturing that connection and you know, if it’s not the right time, another thing is, you know, this sounds amazing, but this isn’t the right moment.
[00:11:20] Can you check in with me later? And I always love having a specific time. I advise this with my regular clients too, so it’s not maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day, it’s, you know, like, I don’t know if I want to hold hands right now, but check in with me at lunchtime or something like that. That’s, I always like leaving the door cracked rather than slamming it closed.
[00:11:41] Adam Walker: Oh, I love that. That’s such a great concept. Okay. Yeah. Leave the door cracked. That’s a good takeaway, I think. All right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:48] Amy Rowan: And then, you know, feel free to ask your partner for touch or what you want, because like I said, they may be afraid to offer, they may be holding back, waiting for you to say something, and then you’re waiting for them to say something.
[00:11:58] And now you guys are both just like in this like waiting phase. And the elephant is growing. And so if you would like, you know, and when I say touch, I’m talking about non-intentional, non-sexual touch. So holding hands, hugging, cuddling, you know, all of those things. And there’s a wonderful book that I recommend is called A Better Normal.
[00:12:18] It’s by Tess Devèze. They are an Australian occupational therapist that specialize in sexuality. They’re living terminal now which is just, ugh it’s devastating. But there are so many really wonderful communication prompts there.
[00:12:36] Adam Walker: I love that. I love, I mean, I love the, just even the concept of a communication prompt, like that’s, I think just that framework alone is a helpful idea.
[00:12:44] Amy Rowan: Yeah. Another tip that I have is get to know your post-cancer body, your post-surgical body and learn what feels good. Touch yourself and communicate that, you know, a big realization that I had, and I don’t remember what part of the journey it was, but I realized that my husband was avoiding my chest area after my mastectomy, after my surgeries because and I thought it was because he like wasn’t attracted to it anymore.
[00:13:11] It just wasn’t something that he wanted to touch anymore. But I finally talked to him about it, and I finally asked, and he said, well, Amy, you told me a while ago that it was numb and it felt weird because it did. And you know, I just remember feeling different areas and there’s weird tingling and things like that.
[00:13:29] So he was like, I avoided it because you said it felt weird and I didn’t want it to feel weird. And I said, oh, well actually no I’m open to you touching that area again. So, you know, there had just been this miscommunication, misunderstanding there. And, you know, once I said, no, this is, this area is not off limits for me anymore, then, you know, he was happy to reincorporate that.
[00:13:51] And then just don’t be afraid to talk to your care team, but also go in with low expectations. Ask the questions, but. As I mentioned before, so many medical professionals, they’re not trained to talk about sex and intimacy, or they’re uncomfortable talking about sex and intimacy. There’s a great list of some questions to ask your me, your care team in a better normal and you know, and then if you aren’t getting the answers that you’re looking for, definitely seek professional help with someone who does have training in sex and intimacy such as myself, a Sex and Intimacy coach, sex therapist, things like that.
[00:14:25] Adam Walker: That’s great. That’s great advice. Great advice. Now I’m curious, like, and I think you’ve alluded to this already, but I wanna make sure that we give listeners like tangible next steps, like what are like tangible steps towards regaining intimacy, how survivors can start to regain body confidence and acceptance.
[00:14:44] Amy Rowan: Absolutely. I’ve got three important steps and I’ll break them down. The first one is nurturing intimacy and affection. And these are small giants with regaining your body confidence. So these tiny little things, they can just mean the world and they build this bridge of connection. And that is your goal here.
[00:15:04] Your goal is connection because connection leads to oxytocin. Yeah, that’s right. And oxytocin is the feelgood chemical of the feelgood hormone. It’s the bonding hormone. And so handholding, cuddling on the couch touch for the sake of touch. Without intention. So non-intentional touch, and I’m talking about without intention of sex.
[00:15:26] All of this is really important. Touch is so, so important, especially people who are going through long-term treatment, long-term chemo, radiation. Often all they receive is medical touch. So they have nurses, they have doctors touching, you know, all of these different things and. Their body, their minds will start to detach from touch as a protective mechanism.
[00:15:50] And because it’s just medical touch. Yeah. And so having that that friendly, that loving touch is so important. You know, there’s also a really high likelihood that intercourse and I wanna redefine the word sex is not just intercourse, but that intercourse may be off the table for a period of time.
[00:16:12] There’s a very high likelihood of that, right. Due to any number of reasons. Right. And that’s throughout our lifetime too. That’s not just within cancer. Maintaining connection during that time is so, so important. And so just some things that you can say or like, you know, I’d really like to be close, closer to you.
[00:16:29] Can we snuggle? I’m really loving you right now. I just wanted you to know, just, you know, acknowledging that you still like really love and are attracted to this person, even if, you know, you can’t be together in a sexual way. I’m not looking for sex right now, but I’d really love some kisses and hugs.
[00:16:46] Another thing that, you know, I know that we did a lot of is you know, obviously my chest couldn’t be touched for a while just because it hurts. So side hugs. My husband would read books aloud to me when I was in the hospital bed. And this includes kids again. My children telling a three-year-old that he can’t hug his mom was
[00:17:07] probably one of the hardest parts of the, because how do you teach that to a 3-year-old?
[00:17:11] Adam Walker: The three-year olds are huggers. That’s what they do. Yeah.
[00:17:13] Amy Rowan: And he’s a monkey. He’s still a monkey. He’s 11 and he’s still a monkey. But so we learned, we start, we did leg hugs, so Oh, that’s great. He would sit in the recliner with me and we would hug each other with our legs, and so we just maintained our connection in that way.
[00:17:30] When my chest couldn’t be touched.
[00:17:31] Adam Walker: I love that. That’s such a great way to look at it. Like I, I don’t think I ever would’ve thought of something like that, but yeah. Yeah. Three, three year olds are, they’re huggers for sure. Yeah.
[00:17:39] Amy Rowan: Yeah. The second one is just embracing the loss of spontaneity. You know, your libido is probably gonna drop I mean, it’s like almost guaranteed.
[00:17:48] And there’s no magic quick fix here. So especially if you’re looking at longer term treatment or chronic illness. One recommendation that I really love is keeping a diary of your fatigue and pain. So keep it over two weeks. Note the time, you know, if you have chemo, I’m feeling really tired or sick, or pain on these times.
[00:18:09] And if you keep it over two weeks, you’ll start to identify some timeframes when you’re feeling better. Those would be a great time to plan a touch date. So because when you’re feeling really sick or tired, you may not wanna be touched, and that’s also okay. But finding those intentional periods where you can connect around your fatigue and pain are important.
[00:18:31] You know, in, in normal times I talk about scheduling sex which people like scheduling sex. But it’s actually a really wonderful tool for busy people. And so this is the same thing schedule.
[00:18:42] Adam Walker: Especially for parents.
[00:18:43] Amy Rowan: Yes. You, I mean, you have to, you, I mean, it’s, my kids are in, you know, elementary, middle, and high school now, right now.
[00:18:51] And it, you have to schedule it. It is so, so important. So so that’s, you know, just embrace that loss of spontaneity. Find those right times that work and go ahead and put them in on the calendar. And then the last thing is just reclaiming your confidence. Watch your social media use. Eat well, exercise as you can, or just do what you can.
[00:19:14] Buy new clothes that fit your new body. You know, I know my body changed so much, you know, after every surgery I had to get new bras and new shirts and all these different things. You know, if you find yourself really mourning your precancer body, take, remove pictures of that at least for a little while.
[00:19:28] Yeah. Embrace your shy if you feel like you need to wear a sports bra or something. Keep the lights off. That’s fine. Like it’s okay. Like give yourself all of that space and and also just grieve like it’s okay. Yeah. It’s a loss. It’s okay to grieve that and you know, I think the biggest confidence boost for me, at the end of all my surgeries, I got the 3D nipple tattoos, and I had no idea how much they were going to boost my confidence because I went from, when I had these Barbie zombie boobs, that’s what I called them, my, my zombie boobs, because I’d hop outta the shower and I’d see these like Barbie, you know?
[00:20:05] Adam Walker: Yeah. That’s the best description I’ve ever heard of that.
[00:20:08] Amy Rowan: Yeah. It’s, you know and, but every time I would see that it was just a reminder and I got these nipple tattoos and all of a sudden I was like, oh my gosh, I look whole again. Yeah. I look complete again. And that was a big confidence boost for me.
[00:20:20] Adam Walker: I’ve heard a lot of guests actually say that. Yeah, which is really interesting. So I’m curious though you mentioned something earlier in your in taking care of yourself, you said watch your social media use. What do, I’m curious what you meant by that.
[00:20:32] Amy Rowan: I, you know, social actually I just recently took Facebook off of my phone about a month ago.
[00:20:38] Okay. Okay. My anxiety is down. Like it’s, yeah, it’s. I, you don’t even realize how pervasive it is, right? But watch your social media. Like who are you following? Like if you are following, you know, a lot of, you know great looking celebrities and things like that. I see. I see. Yeah. You know, now there are also a lot of accounts that you can look up that might show like post-cancer bodies and celebrate that.
[00:21:01] Right, right. But you know, if you find yourself just feeling really bad about yourself, really bad about the way that you look, like, what are you consuming? What are you putting into your brain?
[00:21:08] Yeah.
[00:21:09] Feel free to hit unfollow at least for a little while. Yeah.
[00:21:13] Adam Walker: Or snooze for 30 days on Facebook or whatever, right?
[00:21:15] Amy Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. You’re you’re probably not going to miss it, honestly. You think that you will, you’ll fill your time with other things. In the month that I’ve been off Facebook, I’ve started learning two languages. My middle son and I have started a new business. I mean, I’m reading books like it is.
[00:21:31] I love it. I’m not kidding. Like the amount of time I brought back into my life as a busy mom of three running her own business. Yeah. It’s unbelievable.
[00:21:39] Adam Walker: So that’s so good.
[00:21:40] Amy Rowan: Yeah.
[00:21:42] Adam Walker: But I gotta ask, what two languages? Are you learning?
[00:21:44] Amy Rowan: French and Italian. It was my middle son. He wanted me to learn Italian with him.
[00:21:47] Okay. He said he bought the family plan on Duolingo and he said, mom, will you join my family? And I said, of course I’ll be part of your family.
[00:21:53] Adam Walker: Mom, will you join my family? That is the greatest question right there. I love that. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Duolingo, two languages on.. That’s bold. That’s very, I like it.
[00:22:02] I know. I like, that’s bold. That’s very bold. All right. What are some of the health challenges that women experience after treatment? Do you have any recommendations on things that might help with that?
[00:22:14] Amy Rowan: Absolutely. You know, I think these health challenges are well documented, but loss of libido. Loss of sensation, vaginal dryness, painful intercourse, clitoral atrophy, vaginal atrophy, you know, numbness, all of these different things and you know this is so common, you know, especially if you’re on any sort of hormone blockers, you know, tamoxifen, things like that, it kicks you into immediate menopause.
[00:22:38] So and the good news is, if this has happened to you, and even if it’s been a year, five years, 10 years, this can be reversed. So it. I think a lot of women, especially like we know, like women invest a lot of time and money in our face, right? We expensive skincare products and all of that stuff.
[00:23:01] Invest that same time and care into your vulva. So and so let’s talk about some of these things. The first thing I really wanna address is pain, because this is a huge issue and a lot of people come to me after they’ve been doing this for a while. Where they’re like, it started becoming painful.
[00:23:23] And I have just continued to push through this pain because I love my, like, I, I just feel that like I can just push my body through this. I wanna do this for my partner. I wanna do this for me. I don’t understand my bo.. My body’s not cooperating. And they keep pushing through the pain.
[00:23:39] Adam Walker: They
[00:23:39] Amy Rowan: do it for years and then at some point their body is like,
[00:23:43] no. Stop. Yeah. And then they come to me and they say, we can’t even have intercourse anymore because my body won’t let me. And it’s because they’ve been pushing through the pain. So the first piece of advice I wanna offer is pain should never, like, on a scale of one to 10, if the pain is higher than a three stop.
[00:23:59] Do not push through that. Do not push through your partner. Do not use numbing creams. Pain is your body’s way of saying that something is not right, and you need to listen to that. So if you are experiencing pain on regular basis. The first medical professional that I recommend that you go see is a pelvic floor therapist.
[00:24:20] A lot of people don’t know that pelvic floor therapists exists, so that’s the great right place to start is to go talk to them because a lot of people are doing the wrong things to deal with pain, so,
[00:24:31] See, a, if you’re, if your pain is consistently above a three, go see a pelvic floor therapist.
[00:24:37] For vaginal dryness, things like that a great lubricant is absolutely essential and a daily vaginal moisturizer for the vaginal moisturizer. You wanna look with one, look for one that has hyaluronic acid in it. If you aren’t familiar with hyaluronic acid, it’s actually something that our skin makes naturally, it moisturizes our skin.
[00:24:57] People use it on our face. It can also be used inside the vagina. So you wanna look for a daily vaginal moisturizer, and then you want to use a really great lubricant during any sort of penetration. My favorite lubricant that I love, I actually carry it in my shop. I have a online shop called Suburban Intimacy Shop.
[00:25:15] It’s called Orgasm. It was designed by a couple in their sixties. They said they designed the lubricant that they couldn’t found, and it’s an arousal lubricant. It has CBD in it, which helps with pain. It has l-arginine, which increases blood flow, which helps with arousal. It has very clean ingredients and it is like my hands down fave.
[00:25:33] So alright. You wanted there? Yeah, absolutely. Or just look for if you’re you know, or look for a silicone or a hybrid lubricant. I also like the simply timeless line that those are all really great things. So the other thing the little sexologist thing that I wanna mention with lubricant though, is don’t use it to cheat.
[00:25:55] So the huge misconception is that a wet vagina is an aroused vagina, and that is not true. Vaginal wetness happens typically fairly quickly, or we add the lubricant in for the wetness, but arousal can take up to 20 to 40 minutes. And so just because you are red and red, that just means you’re ready to be penetrated.
[00:26:17] But that doesn’t actually mean that you’re ready for pleasure. So don’t use that to cheat.
[00:26:21] Adam Walker: Right. Right. So that’s good advice. Alright. Yeah.
[00:26:24] Amy Rowan: You know, and then just a couple other things, and I’m not a doctor, so always clear these things with your doctors That’s right. But there have been many studies that have shown that topical bioidentical estrogen cream can be used by hormone positive breast cancer survivors.
[00:26:38] Talk to your doctor first. But there have been a lot of studies that have shown that. So talk to your doctor. Because it’s just applying that bioidentical estrogen cream topically can really help you know, nourish the vaginal tissues, right? I’ve had some clients that have had a lot of success with hypnosis and and sometimes also with your doctor’s permission, you might be able to take a medication holiday, like if you’re on Tamoxifen or something like that.
[00:27:05] I think for some people you can go off of it for like maybe one or two months a year. So if you plan that around a vacation or something like that. Right. But obviously always talk to your doctor first about all of those things.
[00:27:15] Adam Walker: That’s right. That’s right. Yes. Talk to your doctor. Yep. So I, I know intimacy before cancer and after cancer is probably very different.
[00:27:25] It doesn’t look the same. And how can our listeners sort of redefine sex in, in, I mean, because you even said it earlier, like you wanna redefine, like how should they be redefining it?
[00:27:38] Amy Rowan: Well, and this is what I do as a sexologist. I do this with all of my clients because, okay, great. I like that. The way that we have been taught to have sex is not serving women.
[00:27:50] The way that we’ve been taught to have sex is broken. So we’ve been taught, first of all, that sex is intercourse. And you know, a huge thing that I wish I could shout from the rooftops is less than 8% of women experience an orgasm on intercourse alone. Less than 8% of women, pretty much every single one of my clients comes to me and they say, there’s something wrong with me.
[00:28:14] I can never have an orgasm during intercourse. And I’m like, no, there’s nothing wrong with you. You are part of the 92% of women that require clitoral stimulation. Yeah. So you’re perfectly normal. Right. And so when we redefine sex as all kinds of pleasurable touching, then it really opens the door. And so there are so many different ways of exploring and having a lot of fun without intercourse, because again, if intercourse is painful, that doesn’t mean you have to throw out sex altogether.
[00:28:46] There’s still a lot of fun things that you guys can do, and there. Is it going to look different? Probably it most likely will. It certainly did, you know, for my husband and I, but it’s actually a little bit of a it’s a bit of a blessing in disguise because it can spark a lot of creativity. And I have this happen with a lot of older couples that come to me.
[00:29:07] You know, they’re postmenopausal, you know, he may be experiencing erectile dysfunction. Things are not working the way that they used to. And so they have to look and experience sex differently. And so you don’t have to wait until you get breast cancer to dive into this. My, my first piece of advice is focus on pleasure.
[00:29:24] Not orgasm, stop with the goal oriented sex. That’s what we’ve been taught. We’ve been taught. She has an orgasm. He has an orgasm. If we’re talking about heterosexual relationship, and then sex is over once he has his orgasm, and that is not how sex has to go so be open to redefining your sexual script.
[00:29:45] Your biggest sex organ is your skin, and there are tons and tons of areas to explore. Bring in a toy, buy some new lingerie with your new body, something that makes you feel sexy. There’s different types of pleasure sleeves that can be used on a partner with a penis creamy lubricants so that you can give them some pleasure or they can have some solo pleasure on their own if this is off the table.
[00:30:09] But it can also be fun to explore these things together. So when you look at sex as kind of an adult playtime, not as a role, not as a road to dual orgasms. It doesn’t have to begin with foreplay and end with his orgasm. So just sort of redefining all of
[00:30:28] Adam Walker: that. I love that’s such a great broad perspective to have on it.
[00:30:34] Like it’s playtime, you know? Yeah. So that’s great. It is. That’s great. I love that.
[00:30:38] Amy Rowan: And there’s, and you know, there’s some really cool ways that, like for example, I don’t have nipples anymore, so nipple stimulation is obviously something I’ll never experience again. But you can create, you can actually create new neural pathways to pleasure.
[00:30:53] You can turn different areas of your body into a erogenous zone. You can turn the inside of your arm into a erogenous zone. It takes time and diligence, but there are ways of doing it. So there are, there’s just new ways of it.. it opens up a lot of doors and. I think another thing that a lot I hear constantly is, I’m so stressed, I don’t wanna have sex.
[00:31:15] Guys, the biggest, best stress relief in the world is sex. That’s the truth. It releases just this amazing, you know, hormonal cocktail, chemical cocktail. And, you know, all the feel good chemicals, all of that stuff. So. It may feel like the opposite of what you’re, of, what you’re looking for, but when you’re really stressed, turning into each other and leaning into your connection is a really great time.
[00:31:43] So and just for some good tips for both, for all of that, and again, this is just kind of general improve your sex life knowledge. Right? There’s a couple great books. One is Come as You Are by Dr. Emily Nagoski absolutely fantastic. Easy read, and it just, it’s gonna open your eyes and it’s a huge thing of what I teach all of my clients Better Sex Through Mindfulness by Dr.
[00:32:07] Lori Brotto. Or if you wanna merge the two and watch it, then watch the Principles of Pleasure on Netflix.
[00:32:12] Adam Walker: Oh, that’s really good to know. Okay. Wow. I didn’t expect a Netflix to sneak in there, but all right. That’s great to know. All right, well I was gonna ask you for advice, but you just gave us a lot of advice.
[00:32:24] Do you, I mean, is there any additional advice that we should know as we’re wrapping up here?
[00:32:28] Amy Rowan: You know, I think the biggest thing is listen to your body. And listen to what it’s telling you. You know really tune into that and, and it’s hard when you’re feeling angry, when you’re feeling betrayed, when there’s so many things that are happening to you that are really completely outside of your control.
[00:32:46] So tuning into that is important. But here’s the other thing I’m gonna offer is don’t be afraid to jump back in. There is growth that can happen when you step outside of your comfort zone. So I, as a sexologist, I give you permission to look at those uncomfortable feelings. Have that uncomfortable conversation and jump back in because sometimes the best way to do it is just that the elephant has grown in the room and you can, you know, what’s the best way to eat an elephant?
[00:33:17] One bite at a time. Or you can just kick it out. Yeah. So when you change your definition of sex to an include all types of pleasurable touching, again, you’re opening the door to a lot of different types of fun, sensual experiences. Let go of perfection. You know, I think some people think that sex has to be like it is in the movies, and so you might have to have a bunch of pillows and readjust them and you might have to change positions and you might have to start and stop and then start and stop again and maybe
[00:33:48] it doesn’t work out the way that you wanted to. That’s not a failure. Like just celebrate that you even started in the first place. Yeah. Like start with those little pieces and give yourself and your partner grace. Be willing to laugh. You know, for me, part of my healing process was becoming intimate again.
[00:34:07] I was just so worried about how my body was going to work or not work. And I needed to know that it still worked by my definition of that. Yeah. I wanted to know what feelings I had. I wanted to know that I could still feel pleasure. I wanted to know that I could still have an orgasm and people may think that I’m crazy.
[00:34:25] But this was important for me. Two weeks after my double mastectomy and treatment surgery, I wanted to try, I asked my husband, I went to him, I said, I just need to know if this is still going to like work for me and so. And so we did. It was very careful. We had lots of pillows. It was very slow.
[00:34:46] And but it just really helped me to know that my body was still mine. And it was beaten, scars, you know, no breasts, all of that stuff. It still belonged to me.
[00:35:01] And I’m not saying that this is for everybody, right. It, it may not be, but it was really important for me. To feel like me again.
[00:35:07] And that helped me feel like a woman again. And once I overcame that fear, then it just was easier for me to feel like more than the sum of my scars.
[00:35:19] Adam Walker: Wow. That’s beautiful. I appreciate you sharing that. Well Amy, this has been great. I mean, on so many levels, so helpful, I think to so many listeners.
[00:35:30] How can listeners find you and, you know, connect and continue to learn from you?
[00:35:35] Amy Rowan: Absolutely. If you would like to download my intimacy after mastectomy workbook, you can come to my website, which is suburban intimacy.com. I also have a quiz where you can learn about what is blocking your bedroom bliss.
[00:35:51] So come check that out. I also have a podcast with another sexologist. Dr. Trina Read, she’s Canadian, she’s fantastic. It’s called the Sensational Sex Podcast, and we help women in long-term relationships thrive after the honeymoon stage is over. So we do a much deeper dive into a lot of the things I’ve kind of touched on here.
[00:36:13] So feel free to come and listen and check that out. We would love to have you as a listener over there. If you wanna find me on Instagram, Facebook I still have my business account. I’m still on there. Some, so you can look me up as Amy Rowan, intimacy coach or Suburban Intimacy. And if you’re interested in one-on-one intimacy coaching, know, if
[00:36:35] you’ve gotten a little bit, but you’re like, I really wanna dig in more. Come and book a complimentary discovery call with me. If you mention this, the Real Pink podcast, then I’ll give you a discount off of any of my coaching packages. The discovery call is free, so we’ll just learn a little bit more about what’s going on and I’ll share my support options and see how I can help you
[00:36:55] Have a really amazing, wonderful, pleasurable, intimate life exactly where you are, exactly how your body is now, and into the future. So I also have a free sexual empowerment summit. It’s coming up in June. I haven’t fully announced all of the details yet but there’s gonna be tons and tons of great information there.
[00:37:14] So lots of other things in the work. So just come and get on my email list at suburbanintimacy.com and then you will be in the loop for everything.
[00:37:21] Adam Walker: I love that. The email list that’s the final one. That’s the way then, you know, then you’re never gonna miss anything, right? You got everything.
[00:37:28] Absolutely. Suburban intimacy.com. All right. Yes. Well, Amy, this has been really great. I mean, great conversation. Love the work that you’re doing, love your perspective on all this, and really appreciate you joining us on the show today.
[00:37:38] Amy Rowan: Thank you so much for the invitation, Adam, and thank you Susan G Komen for being open to this conversation.
[00:37:43] It’s just such an overlooked part of the cancer journey for so many, and I just really appreciate the time and being given the opportunity to speak. So thank you.
[00:37:54] Adam Walker: Well same. We’re glad you’re here. Glad you’re here. Thanks for listening to Real Pink, a weekly podcast by Susan G Komen. For more episodes, visit real pink.Komen.org. And for more on breast cancer, visit Komen.org. Make sure to check out at Susan G Komen on social media. I’m your host, Adam. You can find me on Twitter at AJ Walker or on my blog adam j walker.com.